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Comedian Paul F. Tompkins ends the debate over cake vs. pie with one deliciously pure insight

The comedy legend tells Upworthy that some people are taking this way too seriously.

cake, paul f. tompkins, pie, desserts, debate

Photo Credit: Canva, Wikipedia, Joel Mandelkorn

Cake or pie? Comedian Paul F. Tompkins helps settle debate.

There are decade-long, even century-long debates, that can divide the most amiable of people. Coke vs. Pepsi. Pizza vs. Hotdogs. The Beatles vs. Third Eye Blind. What, no?

But when it comes to desserts, no one examines a controversial argument better than actor/comedian Paul F. Tompkins. For him, it's cake vs. pie and he looks at it from every single delicious angle.

For some years now, Tompkins's bit have delighted audiences, young and old, pie-hungry or cake-monsters. In a clip from Just for Laughs titled "The Truth Hurts People," he first asks the audience if they prefer cake to pie, by round of applause. Pie seems to get a more enthusiastic response, and Tompkins looks shocked. Laughing and shaking his head, he says, "Oh you pie people. You make me laugh."

Paul F. Tompkins settles big baked goods debate. www.youtube.com

Then, as serious as anyone can be during a comedy show, he pauses and says with force: "Cake will always be superior to pie." Many in the audience gasp. "Yeah, the truth hurts pie people. Cake will always be superior to pie for one very simple reason. Frosting! Y'all forgot about the frosting!"

"Every once in awhile, I get some pathetic little pie person saying something like 'Well, you can put whipped cream on a pie.'" Tompkins is not having it. "Whipped cream?! Don’t make me laugh. You've embarrassed the both of us with that answer! You put whipped cream up against frosting?"

The audience eats it up. "Here's how good frosting is. When you eat it directly out of the can, you feel shame. Must be it's pretty good. Must be because you're not supposed to eat it that way. But are you gonna put pie filling up against frosting?"

whipped cream, pie, cake, Paul f. Tomkins, dessert A woman eats whipped cream. Giphy GIF by Neponi

Now with his laser-focus on pie, he exclaims, "First of all, pie filling doesn't even sound like it's that great, right? It sounds like filling. It's just there to prop up the crust of the pie. Yeah, people want to eat crust man. It's like stuff some of this filling in there. They had the chance to jazz up the name of pie filling. They could have called it 'the heart of the pie' or something like that."

Then Tompkins gives some advice to pie. "The only hope that pie has ever had to vanquish cake, ladies and gentlemen, is if science gets off its ass. Let's stick a pin in cancer for awhile and figure out how to frost a pie." He adds, "You're telling me in the history of dudes getting high, no dude ever turned to his friend and said, 'Guess what guys? Tonight is the night that drugs finally pay off. It just occurred to me to put frosting on that pie. This is the experience we've been waiting for! Oh, it's paint. Let's do it anyway!'"

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I had a chance to get some background on the bit from my longtime comedian pal. When asked what inspired it, Tompkins shares exclusively with Upworthy, "I've heard many people express liking pie more than cake in a manner that was meant to convey that they were more sophisticated somehow. When the reality is that both cake and pie are great, and it's not indicative of a more highly evolved state to say one is better than the other. There are so many kinds of both, it's absurd to say one form is better than an another. 'Bread is better than potatoes.' What are you even TALKING about?"

I also asked if there had ever been any serious pushback about his take that cake is superior. Tompkins replies that there has indeed been. "Ever since I first did the bit, there have been people who want to argue it with me offstage. And man, I just don't know what to tell you. It's a silly bit that is not meant to express any empirical truth. I am quite simply goofin' around about dessert preferences. But there have been some people who clearly NEED to argue on behalf of baked goods. To them I say, 'be grateful I didn't go the Chappelle route and write multiple hours of comedy about how you are impertinent for daring to contradict me.' I could CRUSH the pie community if I so choose."

And yet, the timeless debate rages on. Less than a month ago, someone asked on Reddit, "Cake or Pie?" The question has already received over 300 comments and the opinions are strong. Of course, a few of them pay homage to Tompkins. But their answers seem relatively split down the middle. Many of them simply answer "Cake!" or "Pie!" But a few get more detailed and seem to give the question a lot of thought.

One notes it might depend on the country of origin. "Depends on what kind of cake/pie, and how it's made. I feel like us Americans don't tend to make good cakes. You can find them out there, but the standard cheap American cake is not great. Cheap pie is bad, too, obviously. But overall, as an average, I think we do a better job with pie than with cake."

cake, pie, cheesecake, dessert, pastries So many cakes and pies. Giphy GIF by Cat & the Fiddle

This person seems very hungry. "I love pie, but I'm having a chocolate on chocolate cake first any day. Second is a yellow cake with chocolate buttercream. Next probably apple pie and chocolate cream pie. Its gotta be a good cake, not a grocery store cake. If that were the case, I would change my answer to pie."

Then there's the question of cheesecake. One Redditor answers, "Pie unless it's cheesecake or Tres leches." This prompts its own discussion, with someone answering "Isn't cheesecake really just pie? Certainly it isn't cake!"

On that matter, another shares, "Cheesecake > several different pies > carrot cake > more pies > ice cream cake > then the rest doesn't matter."

But this kind commenter finds common ground. "I’ll have the cake and my husband will have the pie. Between the two of us, we are not going to hurt any feelings."

From Your Site Articles

Modern Families

Millennials share their boomer parents’ 15 odd (and hilarious) habits they just don't get

Secretly, they are the most smartphone-addicted generation.

boomers, millennials, generations, grandparents, boomer grandparents, millennial parents, 90s, 2000s, technology, humor

via Canva/Photos

Boomer parents and grandparents sure do have some interesting habits.

When it comes to intergenerational conflict, you never hear too much about Gen Z having a hard time with Generation X or the silent generation having beef with the baby boomers. However, there seems to be some problem where baby boomers and millennials just can’t get on the same page.

Maybe it’s because millennials were raised during the technological revolution and have to help their boomer parents log into Netflix, while the grandparents get frustrated when their adult children don't know how to do basic homemaking and maintenance tasks. There’s also a political divide: Millennials are a reliable liberal voting bloc, whereas boomers are the target demographic for Fox News. Both generations also have differing views on parenting, with boomers favoring an authoritative style over the millennials' gentler approach, which leads to a ton of conflict within families.

A Redditor recently asked Xennials, older millennials, and younger Gen Xers born between 1977 and 1983 to share some quirks of their boomer parents, and they created a fun list of habits that can be both endearing and frustrating.

The users shared that millennials are frustrated with their parents' abilities to use technology but are touched when they send them a greeting card.

boomers, millennials, generations, grandparents, boomer grandparents, millennial parents, 90s, 2000s, technology, humor Baby boomers are a fascinating and endearing group. Giphy

Of course, it is reductive to reduce generations into a series of stereotypes, whether it’s millennials or baby boomers. But, for many, hearing that they aren’t the only person who gets frustrated with their boomer parents can be pretty cathartic and make them feel less alone.

Here are 15 boomer parent quirks that Millennials just don’t understand.

1. They save everything

"They save EVERYTHING (containers, jars, boxes, etc.) just in case they might be able to use it for something later. I feel like this habit was handed down from our grandparents' Great Depression upbringing."

"Absolutely! Shopping bags, empty yogurt containers, boxes that some product came in…..although I love me a 'good box!' I have all my iPhone boxes for no reason."

You know the old saying: Is she really a grandma if she doesn't rinse out used plastic baggies to save for later?

boomers, millennials, generations, grandparents, boomer grandparents, millennial parents, 90s, 2000s, technology, humor An average boomer's basement. Photo by Tania Melnyczuk on Unsplash

2. Scary texts

"Will text something foreboding like 'we need to talk;' then turns out she forgot a recipe."

"My dad will text me 'You need to call me right now' when it’s nothing. And not tell me major life events until well after the fact. Like my aunt had a heart attack and I found out a week later from her son. (And my dad did know.)"

It's true, generations have been battling over tone and punctuation in texts for years.

boomers, millennials, generations, grandparents, boomer grandparents, millennial parents, 90s, 2000s, technology, humor They love to scare their adult children with dramatic texts. Giphy

3. Stranger death toll

"My mom is ALWAYS telling me about dead people I’ve never met. I really do not care. I know that sounds awful, but I don’t have it in me to be sad for everyone on the planet when they pass."

“You remember my friend Carol? Her aunt had that above-ground swimming pool in her backyard. We swam in it a couple times one summer when you were about 9. Anyway, Carol’s mom just lost her brother-in-law. They were very close. Thought you’d want to know.”

boomers, millennials, generations, grandparents, boomer grandparents, millennial parents, 90s, 2000s, technology, humor Boomers love to talk about random people who have died, and large-scale tragedies. Giphy

4. They don't travel

"They act jealous of us traveling but refuse to go anywhere."

"Ooh good one. Mine act jealous of anything we do/buy that they can't solely because they can't get out of their own way and actually make things happen."

And, in general, they have more money and time to make it happen! But they often insist on being homebodies, to their own chagrin.

boomers, millennials, generations, grandparents, boomer grandparents, millennial parents, 90s, 2000s, technology, humor Boomers love staying at home for no good reason. Giphy

5. They print everything

"My Boomer FIL prints out EVERYTHING from his computer. I understand printing out instructions or recipes to help remember but do you really need a file cabinet full of forwarded emails from friends and sale adverts from 5 years ago? Oh well, at least he keeps it organized. Also, both TVs in the house run 24/7 playing reruns of 'CSI: Who Gives a Sh*t Anymore?'"

"I'm not on Facebook, but my dad is. Last year, he made a celebratory post on my birthday and all his church friends liked and commented on it. He printed up the post and all of the comments, stapled it into a little book, and MAILED me the printed Facebook comments..."

boomers, millennials, generations, grandparents, boomer grandparents, millennial parents, 90s, 2000s, technology, humor If it can't be held in their hand, they don't trust it. Giphy

6. 'From, dad' texts

"My dad sends text messages with, 'From, Dad' at the end of them. It cracks me up every time. He also states who he is every time he calls me."

This has to be one of the more endearing things the boomers do. Please never stop.

7. Irrational fears

"One quirk my dad had was that he was deathly afraid of the house burning down. Not from the standpoint of the danger of fire but when he was growing up, if your house burnt down, you were basically homeless and destitute. My mom is much more level headed about it. She always told my dad, that is why we have homeowners insurance."

8. Expired food

"My mother-in-law doesn't throw out expired food. She has food in her pantry that is several years past their expiration dates. Same with condiments in her fridge. You just can't trust any of the food she has on hand because more than likely than not it's way expired. When we have brought this up, that she needs to throw some stuff out, she insists it's absolutely fine. It's not. "

"My grandmother is the same way. Once, she opened her refrigerator, and there was a jar of pickles with mold floating on the surface of the liquid. I pointed it out, and she said it was still good. She would just scoop the mold out at a later time. She has an incredibly strong stomach and immune system."

They also love to stock up on and freeze certain staples, even milk.

boomers, millennials, generations, grandparents, boomer grandparents, millennial parents, 90s, 2000s, technology, humor They'll keep food for way, way too long. Giphy

9. Smartphone addiction

"You always hear a kids 'these kids always on their damn phones.' But when it comes to phone addiction, boomers are far worse."

"My mom drives five hours to see us, then spends the whole time texting people from her church or looking at Facebook."

"I once sat in their living room for over an hour before they decided to put their phones down and speak to me, only to phub me and pick them right back up."

It's not the Gen Alpha kids keeping Bejewled in business!

10. Rigid gender roles

"My dad still clings to the traditional division of 'men's/women's work.' He'll fix a car, do any outside work, clean out a clogged drain. Cooking? If it's any more complicated than making coffee or calling in a pizza, he can't/won't. I don't think he even grills anymore. Laundry? Hell no. Taking care of small children? He'll play with them but that's it."

boomers, millennials, generations, grandparents, boomer grandparents, millennial parents, 90s, 2000s, technology, humor They still hold onto outdated gender stereotypes. Photo by Frankie Cordoba on Unsplash

11. The TV is constantly on

"In-laws leave the TV on for all waking hours. And FIL gets irritated if someone talks over the episode of MASH or Walker, Texas Ranger, that he's already seen 50 times. Like clenching his teeth and stomping the floor."

"TV on 24/7. Constantly flipping between some version of Law and Order, HGTV, and Guy Fieri. Asking me 'did you see that commercial where…' No mom. I don’t have cable. I don’t see commercials. All of the time."

boomers, millennials, generations, grandparents, boomer grandparents, millennial parents, 90s, 2000s, technology, humor This is the generation that invented TV as background noise. Giphy

12. They are always right

"My dad...he's has to be right about everything and doesn't know what to do if you beat him to the point on something. He once was giving me a recipe that required cinnamon, cardamon, and clove and told me just to use Pumpkin Pie Spice! It's the greatest thing! 'Dad, I don't need to. I have all those spices on hand (I bake)' But...no! You have to use this. 'No, I don't. I don't need to buy something that I already have" It happens all the time."

"My parents are always right and they are not impressed about anything."

13. Obsessed with the weather

"Yes, my dad should have been a meteorologist. He used to have a weather alert radio that would sound off in the middle of the night and he would watch the weather channel constantly. We all had to quiet down when your local weather forecast on the 8's came on. He gets really excited about severe weather like when we might get thunderstorms or a tornado."

There's nothing quite like the thrill a boomer gets from relentlessly tracking every movement of an oncoming storm that will probably amount to some rain and little else.

boomers, millennials, generations, grandparents, boomer grandparents, millennial parents, 90s, 2000s, technology, humor They love intensely tracking a thunderstorm via The Weather Channel Giphy

14. One more thing

"Without fail, every time I'm leaving my mother's house and backing down the driveway, she comes back out of her house and stops me to say something else, even though we'd just spoken."

15. Mail stress

"My mom has an anxiety attack during the entire journey of a package or piece of mail she dispatched to me. No, she doesn’t know how to track. She will not rest until she knows that a package has arrived or a nominal check has been cashed. She calls when she is thinking about sending something, when she sent it, when it’s en route, and when it’s expected to arrive. God forbid it’s late. And if I don’t issue a prompt thank you, she will guilt me."

It all makes you wonder what new conflicts will pop up when the millennials become grandparents, and the Gen Z and Gen Alpha kids are the ones doing the griping. Probably that millennials will continue to insist on Googling things when traditional search engines have long been replaced, or that the 90s and 2000s kids will never stop listening to Lil Jon-era hip hop, no matter how old they get and how inappropriate it becomes.

Guess we'll see. Stay tuned!

This story originally appeared in January. It has been updated.

From Your Site Articles

Education & Information

This surprising map reveals the real value of $100 in each state

Your purchasing power can swing by nearly 25 percent from state to state.

cheapest states, cost of living, finances, cost of living, $100

Image by Tax Foundation.

Map represents the value of 100 dollars across America.

As the cost of living in large cities continues to rise due to inflation, tariffs, and other economic factors, more and more people are realizing that the value of a dollar in the United States is a very relative concept. For decades, cost of living indices have sought to address and benchmark the inconsistencies in what money will buy, but they are often so specific they prevent a holistic picture or the ability to "browse" the data based on geographic location.

Each year, the Tax Foundation addresses many of these shortcomings using the most recent Bureau of Economic Analysis data to provide a familiar map of the United States overlaid with the relative value of what $100 is "worth" in each state. In recent years, they've further updated their data so that you can break down the value of your money across every single metro area in the United States. It's an incredibly valuable tool for the many people considering (or who have already acted and migrated from states like California to Florida), Texas and other states with friendly state taxes rates and more affordable housing options.

The map quantifies and presents the cost of living by geography in a brilliantly simple way. For instance, if you're looking for a beach lifestyle but don't want to pay California prices, try Florida, which is about as close to "average"—in terms of purchasing power, anyway—as any state in the Union. If you happen to earn (or luck) your way into Silicon Valley tax brackets, head to Hawaii, D.C., or New York. You'll burn through your money in no time. And in some of those places like Hawaii, there are quality of life measurements that often exceed raw purchasing power.

So, where does your dollar go the furthest in 2025? The financial planning site GoBankingRates.com compiled its own list of cash purchasing power across each state and found that in California, you get the least bang for your buck: only $87.42 in real purchasing power for every $100 of cash. The average person in California makes $96,344 annually, one of the higher income levels in the country. However, just living in California on average costs residents a staggering $86,408, leaving the average person with little flexibility for long-term financial planning projects like retirement, saving for a new home, or even buying a new car.

At the other end of the spectrum is Arkansas, where your dollar goes the furthest. In fact, that $100 bill burning a hole in your proverbial wallet is in fact worth more than its technical value, with a real value of $113.49. On top of that, the cost of living is only $37,067, less than half of that in California. Further, the average cost of a new home in Arkansas is $208,743, less than one-third of a new home in California. Not coincidentally, in 2023, Arkansas was the top destination for people moving to another state within the United States, followed by Texas.

family, moving, income, finances, $100 Family moving into a new home. Canva Photos.

How about Florida, which has received outsized attention in recent years for its overt efforts to draw residents from California and other states with higher costs of living? According to the most recent data, Florida is in fact much closer to California than Arkansas, coming in only in 40th place on the GoBankingRates rankings, with $100 in cash only being worth $96.55. However, the annual cost of living is still only slightly more than half of that in California, coming in at $53,505. And if you're looking to buy some real estate, the average home is valued at $404,924. That's still well outside the purchasing power of many Americans, but with built-in advantages such as warm weather and one of the top-ranked state education system in America, it's obvious why so many people, especially those with families, are choosing Florida over California in recent years.

florida, cost of living, finances, $100, education Driving Road Trip GIF by Rosen Hotels & Resorts Giphy

According to U.S. News and World Report's data analysis, California only has the nation's 23rd best education system and is ranked a paltry 37th overall in their state rankings. It's quite a contrast for a state that bills itself on the promise of opportunity, natural wonder, and positive lifestyle options. And with 2025's wildfires (as well as an annually-worsening wildfire season), the constant threat of earthquakes, and other factors, California clearly has challenges beyond economics if it wants to remain one of the more attractive states in the nation.

Of course, those numbers are always in flux, and political leaders in California have promised concrete reforms in order to address the state's high cost of living compared with the value of its social and emergency services. If you want proof of how quickly things can change, look at a similar analysis of the value of $100 in each state from 2015:

- YouTube youtu.be

However, those negative statistical trends aside, California continues to have an incredible pull on our collective imagination. Four hundred twenty-three thousand, one hundred ninety-four Americans left their state for California according to the most recent data in 2023, placing it in third behind our previously mentioned top two states, Arkansas and Texas.

So, it's clear there are a number of factors that determine the best place to live in America. When it comes to raw purchasing power, you cannot beat Arkansas. But there's so much else to consider: public resources like education and healthcare, job opportunities (you probably won't make nearly as much in Arkansas as you might in California) and other factors such as proximity to family, friends, and personal interests.

There's no doubt America is rapidly changing and that includes what people value the most when they decide where to live. In uncertain economic times, the face of America will likely change radically in the coming years with the political, economic, and social landscape shifting in meaningful ways.

This article originally appeared in August.

From Your Site Articles

Fans applaud Quinta Brunson for how she supported Jennifer Aniston during an emotional interview moment

“Quinta handled this masterfully."

Actreses Quinta Brunson and Jennifer Aniston in an interview.

@variety/TikTok

The way Brunson comforted Aniston speaks volumes.

For those not familiar with Variety's “Actors on Actors,” it’s a live interview series where two actors discuss various aspects of their craft and career. Often, actors will be paired together because of a common thread. Margot Robbie and Cillian Murphy during the height of "Barbenheimer," for example. Or Anne Hathaway and Emily Blunt, who both starred in the 2006 classic The Devil Wears Prada.

So, it’s no surprise that two comedy queens, Jennifer Aniston and Quinta Brunson, would be paired together for the latest “Actors on Actors” segment. What people are astounded by, however, is the way Brunson handled a very serious moment.

At one point during the conversation, a producer off camera suggested that Brunson ask Aniston “what it’s like to watch Friends now.”

This clearly struck a chord with Aniston, who, already tearing up, said, “Don’t make me cry.”

Noticing this, Brunson softly said, “You’re already crying. Do you want a minute?” before assuring her, “We don’t have to talk about [this].”

@varietymagazine Jennifer Aniston gets emotional when asked about "Friends." #ActorsOnActors ♬ original sound - Variety

Tilting her head up to not let the tears fall, Aniston replied, “No, no, sorry, I just started thinking about...” before Brunson quickly said, “I know. Yeah.”

It’s evident that Aniston’s emotional reaction was triggered by the loss of her former Friends cast mate Matthew Perry, who died suddenly on October 28, 2023. The pair’s friendship remained strong even after the show ended in 2004; Perry even revealed that Aniston was the member of their group who reached out to him “the most” during his sobriety journey.

All this to say, Aniston was understandably triggered by the question. Brunson saw that, and acted accordingly. She once again offered, “We don’t have to talk about it,” waited while Aniston grabbed a tissue to compose herself, then masterfully guided the conversation to a joke.

“So, Jen, Friends is turning 30…and you are turning 30…When you were a baby on that show, you were so advanced…your fine motor skills were insane”

Viewers applauded the Abbott Elementary star for “taking care” of Aniston’s emotional wellbeing.

”Quinta gets props for saying to Jennifer, ‘We don’t have to go there if you don’t want to.’ I get why the producers were trying to create that buzzworthy moment, but I also appreciate Quinta’s willingness to derail it for Jennifer’s sake,” one person wrote on Youtube

“Quinta’s little ‘I know’ — it was so simple but so kind and empathetic,” added another.

Over on TikTok, comments were just as complimentary.

“Quinta handled this masterfully,” wrote one person.

Another echoed, “How Quinta handled that- that’s why she’s where she’s at.”

Seeing people take care of one another never gets old. You can watch the full conversation between Brunson and Aniston below:

This article originally appeared last year.

From Your Site Articles

best of humanity

A fourth-grade teacher asked for 3 'good reasons' for slavery. There was only right answer.

The school assignment was intended to spark debate and discussion—but isn't that part of the problem?

history, Black Americans, school, homework assignment, outrage

Trameka Brown-Berry/Facebook

A school assignment asked for 3 "good" reasons for slavery.

Back in 2018, a fourth-grader's school assignment was so shocking that it went viral. Every news outlet from ABC7 to HuffPost to CNN reported on the incident, in which a homework assignment asked students to list three "good" reasons for slavery. Yeah, you read that right.

The assignment was given to fourth graders at Our Redeemer Lutheran School in Milwaukee, Wisconsin, and also asked for three "good" and three "bad" reasons for slavery. The absurd and offensive assignment was brought to the public's attention when one fourth grader's mom shared a photo of the homework sheet on Facebook, asking, 'Does anyone else find my 4th grader's homework offensive? "

Now, it's not uncommon for parents to have questions about their kids' homework. Sometimes, it's just been too long since they've done long division for them to be of any help. Or teaching methods have just changed too dramatically since they were in school. And other times, kids bring home something truly inexplicable.

For mom Trameka Brown-Berry, looking over her 4th-grade son Jerome's homework made her jaw hit the floor.

The school assignment was intended to spark debate and discussion—but isn't that part of the problem? The shockingly offensive assignment deserved to be thrown in the trash. But young Jerome dutifully filled it out anyway, and his response was pretty much perfect:

In the section reserved for "good reasons," Jerome wrote, "I feel there is no good reason for slavery that's why I did not write."

We're a country founded on freedom of speech and the debate of ideas, which often leads us into situations where "both sides" are represented. In most cases, looking at both sides of a debate can help people come to a clear conclusion about what's right and what's wrong. But in this scenario, there is no reason that a child should ponder the positive benefits of slavery. There's no meaningful dialogue to be had about the perceived merits of stripping human beings of their basic living rights. No one is required to make an effort to "understand the other side" when the other side is bigoted, hateful, and violent.

The principal apologized to the students for the assignment

In a follow-up post, Brown-Berry writes that the school has since apologized for the assignment and committed to offering better diversity and sensitivity training for its teachers.

But what's done is done, and the incident illuminates the remarkable racial inequalities that still exist in our country. After all, Brown-Berry said to WCTI ABC News12, "You wouldn't ask someone to list three good reasons for rape or three good reasons for the Holocaust."

At the very end of the assignment, Jerome brought it home with a bang: "I am proud to be black because we are strong and brave..."

Even though the assignment was offensive, Brown-Berry found a silver lining in the experience for her son. "The moral of the story is, the only way to teach our kids to stand up for their rights and respect is to model it. With all of your support, I was able to give my child a personal life lesson about how change starts with you," she wrote in a Facebook post.

Good for Jerome for shutting down the thoughtless assignment with strength and amazing eloquence, and for being brave enough tell the truth: there are no good reasons for history's most heinous acts. The sooner the world acknowledges that, the sooner we can heal and restore.

This article originally appeared seven years ago. It has been updated.

From Your Site Articles

Mom writes tough letter to rebellious, 'independent' 13-year-old son and gets unexpected response

When the criticism started rolling in, Heidi Johnson doubled down.

moms, motherhood, parenting, family, teens, teenagers, letters, tough love, parenting styles

via Heidi Johnson/Facebook

A letter written from mother to son.

Parents are people, too. Whether they subscribe to "gentle parenting" ideas or a more old-school approach, the truth is that they're just doing their best. Sometimes they get it right, sometimes they make mistakes, and quite often, it's hard for anyone to tell whether they're doing a good job until years later.

Heidi Johnson's son was 13, deeply in adolescence, and in that stage where he'd frequently lash out and defy her at every turn. In one such instance, he stubbornly told her he shouldn't have to deal with her rules and should be independent. So she wrote a strict but loving "Mom's not a fool" letter. In the letter, she wrote that because he bragged about making money, he can buy back all of the things that she had purchased for him in the past and that he would also have to pay rent.

moms, motherhood, parenting, family, teens, teenagers, letters, tough love, parenting styles Teaching teenagers about real-life consequences isn't easy. Photo by Norbert Kundrak on Unsplash

"Dear Aaron,

Since you seem to have forgotten you are only 13, and I’m the parent, and that you won’t be controlled, I guess you will need a lesson in independence. Also, as you threw in my face that you are making money now, it will be easier to buy back all the items I bought for you in the past. If you would like your lamp/lightbulbs or access to the internet, you will need to pay your own share of costs.

Rent – $430

Electricity – $116

Internet – $21

Food – $150"

She also added some additional chores that, if not accomplished, she would fine him $30.

"He came home, saw the note, crumpled it on the floor, and stormed out of the apartment. I have always encouraged him to take a walk when he is upset so that he can collect his thoughts, so when we try to talk, we are able to talk, and not just yell at each other. I do the same thing — sometimes, I just need to walk away and collect myself. I am not above admitting that. He was still livid when he got home. He decided to stage a 'sit in' in my room, where he did laugh at me and repeat, 'Really? What are you going to do? You can't take my stuff,' etc.

He was asked to leave my room, and when he could be respectful, and I was more calm, we would discuss it further. He went to his room, and after about an hour, he had removed some electronics and items I missed that he felt he should have to earn back for his behavior. He apologized, and asked what could he do to make things better and start earning items back. He earned his comforter and some clothes right back. I did leave him some clothes to begin with, just not the ones he would want to wear every day. He also had some pillows and sheets, just not his favorite ones.”

Johnson decided to post the letter in its entirety on Facebook, the way one does to friends for a laugh and connection. After all, the strategy had been a success!

However, she neglected to make it "private," and soon, comments and shares proliferated, including admonishments from strangers who thought she was a bad parent. Now she had to deal with a bigger teenager: the internet and its commentariat.

But Johnson remained level-headed and wrote another Facebook post, clarifying.

"It's out there; and I am not ashamed of what I wrote... I am not going to put my 13-year-old on the street if he can't pay his half of the rent. I am not wanting him to pay anything. I want him to take pride in his home, his space, and appreciate the gifts and blessings we have.”

She explains that he is more grateful because of it, and also that he has slowly earned back things and dealt with sacrificing others. Then she lists her very organized and succinct rules of the house:

moms, motherhood, parenting, family, teens, teenagers, letters, tough love, parenting styles Kids need to be reminded, sometimes, of how much they still depend on mom. Photo by Spencer Plouzek on Unsplash

1 – Do your best in school! I don't expect a perfect 100%, but I do expect that you do your best and ask for help when you don't understand something.

2 – Homework and jobs need to be done before you can have screen time.

3 – Jobs are emptying the trash, unloading the dishwasher, throwing away trash you make in the kitchen, rinsing dirty dishes, making your bed daily, pick up bedroom nightly, and cleaning your bathroom once a week.

4 – You must complete two chores a day. Each day of the week with the exception of Sunday has a room that we work on cleaning. He has to pick two chores for that room. For example, if it is the living room he can choose two of the following options: dust, vacuum, polish furniture, clean windows, mop the floor.

5 – Be respectful and kind with your words — no back talking, no cussing at me.

6 – Keep good hygiene.

7 – Make eye contact when being spoken to, and be an active listener.

8 – Use proper manners.

It seems that after a long conversation about what being independent truly means, the mother and son came to a deeper understanding and patched things up.

"You know what.. this hasn't hurt our relationship. He and I still talk as openly as ever. He has apologized multiple times... And… he is trying harder," Johnson said.

Tough love is a controversial topic in parenting circles. Some say it makes kids anxious and unsafe while others insist that it's the only way to truly instill an understanding of consequences in young people. Experts say the best "tough love" enforces boundaries and consequences in order to teach tough life lessons, but is done with love and understanding rather than yelling — and it's certainly never violent. That's why it's so powerful how Johnson took the time to cool herself down and write a firm but level-headed letter.

It's also important to remember that teens who rebel aren't bad or ungrateful. The rebellion is a part of how they begin to establish their much-needed independence.

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After the initial negative reaction to her post, Johnson's story continued to spread and drew praise from other exasperated parents of teens:

"Tough love is real love, he has a chance because of you," one commenter wrote.

"Good for you! He needs to appreciate everything you do! You are doing him a favor teaching him what it is to take care of himself and learn some respect," wrote another.

"Best parent I have read about in a very long time. Kids do not rule the house, adults rule the house. Thank you very much for being a great mom," another said.

As for Johnson, her son is earning things back little by little, and "appreciating it more than he did before," she wrote.

"This came down to a 13-year-old telling his mother she had no right to enforce certain rules, and had no place to 'control' him. I made the point to show what life would look like if I was not his 'parent,' but rather a 'roommate.' It was a lesson about gratitude and respect from the very beginning. Sometimes, you have to lose it all to realize how well you really had it."

This article originally appeared four years ago. It has been updated.

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